Fundamentalism isn’t about religion…
September 18th, 2006 by timelady
…it’s about power.
Theres a new film coming out, a documentary called ‘Jesus Camp‘. Its a frightening new look at the rise of Evangelistic Christianity in the USA, and how they are targetting children. (I would argue in this case, it is extreme Evangelical, or Fundamentalism). Send your kids to Jesus camp for the holidays people! Give them meaning and direction!
Some quotes from the film on that meaning and direction:
“I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Palestine, Pakistan and all those different places,” Fisher said. “Because, excuse me, we have the truth.”
“A lot of people die for God,” one camper said, “and they’re not afraid.”
“It’s an absolute, straight-up us-against-them,” Sandler said. “It’s, you’re either with us or you’re against us. … Not only are you a sinner, but you are working for the enemy — the enemy being Satan.“
Substitute Islam for Chistianity, and the USA for Satan, and here we have something that the Western world is rightly appalled by. The hypocrisy is breathtaking and frightening simultaeously. Indoctrinating KIDS.
Its all wrong people. I don’t care what religion you are, this crap is WRONG.
ABC News: Film Shows Youths Training to Fight for Jesus
“A characteristic of religious fundamentalism is to perceive the world as an arena of continuous battle and to nourish it with anger and the desire for revenge. “ Ilter Turkemen
You know, I have no issues with Jesus or Mohammed. Its their loony extreme followers I can’t stand.
David Wolverton Says
Romana, Romana, Romana… You consistantly claim you don’t ‘have it in’ for Christian’s, Christianity (et all) yet you’ve been posting against it (subtley and overtly) on LinuxSA for years - and your blog is full to the brim with even more…
In this particular blog, it appears (to me) that you’ve picked and chosen what you want - without putting it all into context before doing so.
The Site linked to: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2455343&page=1 as the source of this blog, talks about this Camp training up kids as warriors… Put into a Christian context - this does NOT mean going into public places and killing people; it means going into public places to preach and minister Christ without fear of being killed/harmed for doing so.
Further (quote from article) you neglected to quote that: (Quote) Chap Clark, an associate professor at the Fuller Theological Seminary who’s trained youth pastors for decades, said people who see “Jesus Camp” should not come away with the idea that evangelizing to youth consists mainly of political indoctrination. Clark said youth pastors focus much more on providing meaning to kids who can’t find it in a materialistic culture or in their family lives — “which is going to translate into much healthier adults who are more able to be into respectful dialogue and come alongside people who disagree with them. (/Quote)
IF Christian’s were being trained up to kill, if people were being brian-washed/indoctrinated, if people were being programmed to harm others/themselves or to say/do ANYTHING illegal/immoral - I *will* join you in shouting it down from the roof-tops. However, if all that’s happening in such places is that people are learning who Jesus is and being given a CHOICE (where they can leave any time) between life and death - abortion and life - drugs or being drug free (etc etc etc) then what/where is your problem?
I have not watched the video (yet) but from what I read (so far) I would have no issue with my kids going to such a place - providing that they were free to leave/call me to pick them up at ANY time they wanted.
Just my 2c worth - whatever that’s worth of course.
DFW
Sep 19th, 2006 at 12:23 am
timelady Says
As usual David you extract what you wish. The issue is the fundamentalist nature - the us vs the world issue. If you wish youtr children trained to fight for Jesus, well, you have issues I can’t begin to fathom.
Attending a Christian camp is one thing, being taught the rest of the world is Satan, and you need to fight them like the Middle East does (and hasn’t THAT been good?)is a whole other.
And you have made your stand without even watching it! Congratulations, that clanging sound you hear is the echo of your closed mind.
Btw, I do not see the freedom in fundamental indoctrination. If you are not with us, you are with Satan is a pretty scary message for children. Thats not a choice. Look at the images of the weeping kids. Oh yes, you never SAW the film, did you? Do you want your children to be rallying with such campfire cries as ‘Who is ready to die for Jesus?’. Death is not something children should have to contemplate.
Oh, and David, my blog is where i post my thoughts, the links I found interesting. Thats the nature of an individual blog. Having a tanty about that seems a bit - well, childish, don’t you think?
Oh, an added thought:
I make my blog for ME. If anyone else can gain anything from it,
funky. If not, I don’t mind in the least:) You don’t like my blog?
DON’T READ IT! There, wasn’t that simple?:)
Sep 19th, 2006 at 5:53 am
David Wolverton Says
Romana, I’m done getting down into the ‘dirt’ with you. I’ve made that mistake for years, on LinuxSA, and as ‘fun’ as it might be; at the end of the day it gets neither of us anywhere - and I’ve had enough of it.
What you obviously don’t understand - thanks to years of Catholic, Anglican (and other denominations) watering the gospel down - is that The Bible is filled with statements (both Old and New Testament) that directly confirm the world view portrayed in this documentary.
In the new Testament, John the baptist prepared the way… In Matthew’s gospel it’s recorded that “Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Jesus Himself said, (All quotes taken from New King James Version,) “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.”
He also said, “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.”
“Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it— lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish’? Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.”
Paul sums it up nicely in writing, “Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.”
—
Romana, I have now watched the video clip, and can find no fault in anything I saw or heard - with the exception of the worshiping at George W. Bush part; which I suspect is taken out of context. (Speaking as a recognised Videographer of many years experience, I can say first hand that videographer’s are great at presenting the truth THEY want you to perceive.)
Regardless, all of the above barely scratches the surface in proving that the Jesus that moderates preach is NOT the Jesus of the Bible. (I could fill your entire blog bandwidth with examples that prove this statement) Further, I’d suggest that such passages (eg above) must scare the crap out of anyone not willing to lay down their life in this world for the hope of taking up their eternal lives.
As to where you pointed out that I made my stand without even seeing the video, whilst that certainly is true - do I really need to point out to you the Nation of my birth is that same one where the doco originates? (Just because *I* hadn’t seen the clip does NOT mean that I hadn’t heard about it/known people who’ve seen the actual doco.) Regardless, immediately prior to writing this - I did sit down and watch the clip. Having done so, my position is unchanged.
Where you wrote, “If you are not with us, you are with Satan is a pretty scary message for children,” I cannot deny the truth of this statement. But then, telling children they need to be aware of other children and all adults (parents/teachers/police - EVERYONE) making innapropriate comments, touching them inappropriately is also scary for a child. In fact, there are many scary things in this world for children that we as adults need to make them aware of for their protection/survival.
Where you wrote, “Look at the images of the weeping kids.” I say it’s a shame that you haven’t yet recognised the need for your family to have a right relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I’m happy to say that one of our children has recognised his need for Christ in His life - and I GREATLY look forward to seeing the other two come to a similar recognition. (That said, no-one will be ‘forced’ - if they choose NOT to follow Christ, that is their perogative)
Do *I* want my children to be rallying with such campfire cries as ‘Who is ready to die for Jesus?’. Death is not something children should have to contemplate.” Yes, I want my children to be willing to lay down their lives, take up their cross and follow Christ. Absaloutely I do.
As to death not being something children should contemplate - I don’t know how you bring your children up, but death has been a part of all of MY children’s lives, Romana. Since they came into the world, they have lived through the death of my wife’s grandmother, the death of my mother and the death of many other people who’ve played some part in their lives.
Death comes for us all, Romana. It’s talked about by thier peers in kindy, preschool, primary school - their teachers and their parents from birth - all the way up. *I* want my children to not fear death, to understand that it’s not the end of life - but the beginning of it.
In conclusion, where you write that your blog is where you post your thoughts, the links you find interesting; I apologise if you percieved that I was having a ‘tanty’ in responding to this particular thread - that certainly wasn’t my intent.
As to your comment that should I not like it - don’t read it - I think that’s a two edged sword.
If you invite people to your blog (which you did on LinuxSA) and supply them with the ability to respond to your blog (which you do, as this post proves) then you should expect that somewhere/sometime that people are going to do so.
If you don’t like the responses, then you have two options. (A) Ask the respondee not to visit your blog anymore (B) Remove the ability for visitors to respond to your blog.
Thanks for the opportunity to add my 2c worth. I will be happy to honor any request not to visit again in the future should that be your desire.
Sep 19th, 2006 at 12:56 pm
Derek Weber Says
Hi Romana,
Interesting post - Buggered if I know what Wolverton’s problem is. Surely he can see that the movie you’re talking about is demonstrating some pretty scary stuff regardless of its background. My query is regarding the light the film puts the Jesus Camp in. Is it for it, against it, or simply neutral and informative? Nice blog, btw. :o)
D.
Sep 19th, 2006 at 2:39 pm
timelady Says
David, thanks for the lengthy Bible post. Heres a few points.
You raise your family, I raise mine. Yes, they have known death. Its just not something I wish to introduce to them as a concept - here, die for your messiah.
They are, of course, welcome to choose any relgious belief they wish. All I request is they do it in an informed manner, not just follow a trend.
Re inviting LinuxSA to my blog, I invited those that wished to follow links of interest to eithe read my blog, or subscribe to my del.icio.us feed. I do not remember hoding a gun to anyone’s head to do so:)
I do not ask you to agree with anything I do or think - I certainly cannot agree with many of your ideas, and thats ok. One of my big issues is being asked to believe as others. Convert or die, with us or against us, all that ridiculous hyperbole. I do not need your messiah, and thats ok. You do, and thats ok. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I’m very glad you have done with all this, my comments board should be MUCH quieter:)
But I choose not to censor, unless it is blatant troll or spam. I believe you honestly state your opinion, and as perverse and odd as I find it, I respect it as such;)
Sep 19th, 2006 at 3:02 pm
timelady Says
Derek - many thanks re praise:)))
Re David, noone does know. But he seems to enjoy his persecution complex. And his closed mind.
Thankfully, thats all *his* to enjoy!
Truly, no idea re bias of filmmaker.
From the wikipedia entry : “According to the distributor, it “doesn’t come with any prepackaged point of view”, and it tries to be “an honest and impartial depiction of one faction of the evangelical Christian community”.”
Sep 19th, 2006 at 3:05 pm
Bruce Says
“Romana, I’m done getting down into the ‘dirt’ with you. I’ve made that mistake for years, on LinuxSA, and as ‘fun’ as it might be; at the end of the day it gets neither of us anywhere - and I’ve had enough of it.”
Then don’t start it DW. I’ve seen you distort what Romana says to position her as a Christian hater over and over again. You have been caught out on it and warned about it over and over again. You have had your distortions explicitly detailed (through clarification of what Romana is actually saying) to you on multiple occasions over the last couple of years you talk about.
As such, now claiming that you have witnessed Romana to have been targetting Christianity on the LinuxSA list can be summed up in one word; LYING. She hasn’t targetted Christianity, you have distorted her arguments and you know it because you have had it repeatedly brought to your attention.
Perhaps instead of dragging conversation down to your level, you may wish to learn to practice a bit more honesty and respect in dealing with others. It would do your credibility in moral posturing no great harm to actually be on equal moral footing with those you criticise.
As it stands, you are a liar and a bigot without a doubt, motivated by malice now without a doubt; that you admit to not knowing if the Jesus Camp is for producing militants (through your qualifications) yet conclude on Romana’s charater is yet further evidence of motive.
Too often, you pass sentence first, then contrive the evidence afterward. When you save the conclusions to last, you preceed by lying about what Romana has been saying. And it is lying; you can’t claim ignorance after being perpetually corrected after two years.
The last time I read your crap on LinuxSA-Talk, you were preaching to Australians (the voting ones) about what our values and heritage was, like you could actually determine this on our behalf. Now because of the responces of others, I’ve had to see your hate-speak about the other migrants who make it into the country.
Just a bit of Australian perspective for you; Australians are a very patient bunch. But there is a limit to how much bullshit good, honest, accepting Australians are willing to take from evil, dishonest, bigoted Texans. At least not without calling them out.
Sep 19th, 2006 at 10:01 pm
David Wolverton Says
Romana,
Where you’ve writen that, ‘Its just not something I wish to introduce to them as a concept - here, die for your messiah.’ this leads me to conclude that you still are confused about the basic tennants of Pentecostal Christianity. (No, this is NOT evangelism - it’s clarification)
I think that you’re taking Jesus Camp (and evangelical Christianity) out of context. (I’m NOT saying that they didn’t say “Who’s ready to die for Christ” or any of the other things they DID say - I’m saying that what was said was edited so you don’t hear what prefaces it and/or goes after it.)
I/Pentacostal Church’s don’t teach kids to go out and ‘die’ (physcially) for Jesus Christ. We don’t say something like, “We want you to go out and strap a bombs to yourself.” as Muslim extremists teach their children.
What we (my family, my chuch and pentecostalism in general) DO teach is that physical life is temporary, God is not. That any person CAN choose whatever life they want - but there are cosnequences - any way you look at it. (positive or negative)
For example, a person can choose to tell lies, BUT the consequence will be that no-one will believe them when they tell the truth. They can choose to bully people - but the result will be that they will be punished by both the principle and us. On the ‘flip side’ they can choose to tell the truth, and after awhile nothing they say will be doubted and people will trust them. (Etc etc)
Some call this cause and effect, some Karma, some call it the law of sowing and reaping - but whatever YOU call it, THIS is what we teach our children.
That said (getting back to the topic at hand) as an adult, What *I* have been asked to do, both by God and by my chosen society (Church) is to lay down my selfishness (self centredness) and live for God first, family second, Church and Community - and then self LAST. THIS is what I practice to my wife, kids, friends, Church - and this is what I teach my kids to emulate.
I hope this helps clarify what Jesus Camp, Pentecostals in general and *I* teach to my/other community members children.
Moving on, where you wrote that your kids are welcome to choose any relgious belief they wish, and that all you expect is that they do it in an informed manner, not just follow a trend - I don’t have a problem with that. As I’ve said on LInuxSA previously, they learn about other religions every week at their Public Primary School. If they choose to follow one of these other religions later in life, that is their choice and I will respect that.
Where you wrote, “I’m very glad you have done with all this, my comments board should be MUCH quieter:)” this seems (to me at least) to be saying two different things - could you clarify (off-line is fine) what you meant?
Regards,
DFW
Sep 19th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
Bruce Says
“Where you wrote, “I’m very glad you have done with all this, my comments board should be MUCH quieter:)” this seems (to me at least) to be saying two different things - could you clarify (off-line is fine) what you meant?”
It seems like it means “oh good, he’s going to go away.” Or put less diplomatically; “I don’t want this abusive obsessive cyber stalking me.” You know; “No” means “No.”
You know that don’t you? When a woman says stop harassing me, it means stop. Sort of came part and parcel with the enlightenment, with women not being viewed as objects/property/adornments but rather as the equal of men.
Anyway, I thought you weren’t going to get down in the dirt? What gives? Oh the short lived promises.
Sep 20th, 2006 at 1:07 pm
Bruce Says
Hi again Romana,
Did you know at “Jesus Camp” that they are made to worship the image of George W Bush?
Bruce
Sep 20th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Mikey Says
Yep, with you 100% on that one. I don’t care what faith you practice. When you seek cult like indocrination of others and avoid testing your faith with genuine life experience it’s an affront to whatever higher being created you.
I don’t care who you are or what faith you follow. All I can say is get your hand of it. Be it e-meter, bible, koran, twirly stick, snake (for snake handlers), or 8 armed statue of whatever.
Believe what you want sure. But don’t pretend it’s the only true way and that those that don’t follow are damned.
It’s unchristian…
Sep 20th, 2006 at 10:20 pm
Mikey Says
That was meant to be ‘off’ it. Not of it. Unless of it is somekind of metaphorical thing I know not of.
Sep 20th, 2006 at 10:21 pm
Shaun Says
Well George Bush is a christian and he certainly encourages people to die for his cause.
Sep 20th, 2006 at 10:42 pm
Sprog Says
Take off your overquote, David. Why do the fervently religios overquote the Bible? One or two quotes is more than enough. Does quoting eight times make the Bible any less of a fib?
Sep 22nd, 2006 at 10:20 pm
Davo Says
jesus is camp? mm .. if one looks at Parthenogenesis honestly, ‘jesus’ should have been born female .. heh.
Sep 24th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Blisters&Weeds Says
Fundamentalist religion is evil because it places faith before reason, and the ability to reason is what separates humans from animals.
The fact that there are lots of bible quotes that are also evil just illustrates the point.
Sep 27th, 2006 at 3:01 pm